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Bloggers #41, TomB's new epic, Gangs of New Eden

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 24 post(s)
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 21:42:00 - [1] Originally by: Pick Me Originally by: EvilNate zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool. I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all. Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too. Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years? Nate Absolutely NOT. This is why most other MMORPG go straight to hell. In DAOC for example, a guy has 3 high level characters in a 'gang' with a new one he just created. So they go into a very hard place and start to fight with some very interesting macros. If a monster hit the newbee, he is instantly killed. One macro is taking the group to a monster if there is'nt one in front of them. One macro is reviving the newbee char each time he is killed. Other macro make them all attack. So each time a monster died, it's shared between the 'gang' members and thus the newbee go up in level. The guy let the macros run when he sleep or at work and each 3 weeks, he has a nice new medium-high level character to sell for RL money (about 100$ depending on competiton). In Eve, it's impossible to do that because of how the skills system work. But thoses that still sell character would be too happy to raise their standing that way, AND, we should'nt have people in large gang like Bob be able to get anything faster than everyone else just because they are able to form bigger gang. They already have the 'large numbers' bonus with all that come with it. You can already get standings up for someone else: New character accepts 3 level 3 missions and undocks. He gang warps the help to the missions and redocks. Completes all missions on cue. Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:27:00 - [2] Originally by: Kylania Remembering for a moment that EVE is more than just 256 man fleet PvP.. how will this affect a small group of miners for instance? How would a 12 member corp mining op work? You can only have 10 people in a squadron so right away you need two squadron commanders, each with say 5 people? But than Squadron B won't get the bonuses of Squadon A's leader? So you'd need someone to be Wing Commander who has bonuses to affect everyone? And all our little gang bonuses we had are now worthless? My brain hurts from trying to figure this out. Your guy with the mining bonusses (who already has leadership 5 to get them) now trains the new skill 2 levels (2 hours training). He becomes a wing commander and creates 2 squads. You need 2 people each with leadership 3 (6 hours training) to become leaders of those two squads. Everyone now gets all the mining foreman etc skills as before from 6 hours of training - and you have the nifty little ping messages available to help co-ordinate and the whole server has less lag. Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:35:00 - [3] Originally by: Sir Juri Originally by: Matrix Aran Originally by: Serapis Aote Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: Serapis Aote you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead. He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features. which ones... clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent. Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would. I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest. You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though. Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies. So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh? Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor? It's an n squared problem. 5 people in a gang means each person needs updates from 4 people. That is 54 lots of updates. 10 people means 109 50 people means 5049 100 people means 10099 200 people means 200*199 So 5: 20 calculations 10: 90 calculations 50: 2450 calculations 100: 9900 calculations 200: 39800 calculations Then consider that every time you take a hit it needs to work out who is boosting your resistance. Every time you lock a target who is boosting that, how about speed, shield hp? Every one of those things is constantly needing to be checked all the time by all the members. I'm sure it only checks every now and then and caches the result but even so thats 39 thousand calculations every second for each gang bonus. So with 12 gang modules, 5(?) gang skills and 4 titans thats 21 things being checked. So that is 835800 calculations/comparison every time this is updated. For each of those comparisons it needs to work out if you are in the same system, And that is just for gang skills - we aren't even considering hit points display etc at this point! Still don't see why it's a problem? Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 22:58:00 - [4] Originally by: Ithildin Zarch AlDain, that is true unless the devs did it slightly less brute force and had the ships UPDATE when relevant - such as when a gang member enters or leaves system or gang instead of each time you take a hit. If they did it for each time you took a hit, then the gang updates is the least of your worries - just consider all the checks the client and server would need to do on your own ship! Is the hardener running? Yes. What is it's stacking penalty? 23%. Add that in. Check. Oh! Oh! New hit. Redo. Is the hardener running? Yes, that would help - you are still in an N squared situation but it reduces the frequency. Each time you log off, or jump system, or eject, or dock you would need to update every member of the gang still - so that's with everyone in the gang updating. Imagine a jump gate with a large gang now - each person telling every other person each time they jump, then recalculating each side etc. There are other optimisations too such as sorting the results in gang and only searching down the list until you find the first match. None of it changes the fact that the more people are in the gang the more load you get on an exponential curve. It also means that as you add more complexity along those lines you get more chances for obscure bugs and things going wrong. "we jumped three times and faught a battle and now I am getting Jonny's skirmish warfare 3 instead of Bob's skirmish warfare 5" Unlike most people here I am starting with the (possibly optimistic) assumption that the devs are competent and do actually know how to code and how eve works. It therefore seems likely that obvious optimisations such as those have either been tried or rejected for some technical reason. Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Sir Juri I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS STATEMENT BEFORE! PLZ READ THE ANSWER I MADE THEN! SO do I still dont see the problem? read my old replies, ty. edit; on page 7 You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem? Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader. That's it, 3 checks per person. So a hundred man gang has 300 checks instead of 9900, a two hundred man gang has 600 instead of 31 thousand, etc... Now for what it's worth I agree that there should be some consideration given to the role of command ships and being able to support each other better along with delegation of roles in the gang. I also think people are over reacting though and accusing someone of making things up and speaking BS (which you still haven't apologised to the person in question for) is hardly the way to make your case. Neither is shouting at me. Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.07 23:22:00 - [6] Originally by: marcouk2 Originally by: Fi T'Zeh Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ? you prob have to spend the next 20mins reinviting everybody That was answered already by TomB. The fleet structure will stay in place but gang bonusses will not work until someone is promoted to take the fleet commanders place. It seems odd if it removes everyones bonusses though since you would still expect squad leaders to give their bonus to their squad even though everyone loses the fleet commander's bonus. Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:07:00 - [7] Erm, one question... Why does everyone keep saying the commander needs to be in the same grid? All I see in the dev blog is that he needs to be in the same SYSTEM, undocked, and not in a pod. That's the same as current gangs (except maybe for the pod/docked part - not sure about that). Zarch AlDain
Zarch AlDain Friends of Everyone	Posted - 2006.11.08 17:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Zing Ashuwanik Originally by: Zarch AlDain You do not see that a 3N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem? They will have already saved a lot of work by not displaying everyone's health to everyone else. That is just a precursor to my saying: Allow gangmods to effect your squad, as well as the top-down arrangement that is in the current implementation. Then instead of a fleet of 200 making 200199 checks, you have a fleet of 200 making 1011 (10 members each checking their 9 squad mates [which includes their SC], their WC, and their FC) in each of the 20 squads. So 2220 checks. Still more than the 3N (600 in this case), but far far less than the existing 200*199 (~ 39k). [My apologies if this has already been said, read most of the thread and forgot the majority of it] That seems like a pretty good suggestion actually. Each squad member could boost the other members of his squad - but to affect more than 10 people he would need to be a wing/fleet commander. It lets small gangs function how they currently do, it reduces the amount of comms, and it still gives some advantage for training the fleet commanders up as they can apply their bonus to more people. Zarch AlDain

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